Curse

TabascoSauce · Jun 15, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Doesnt matter what she does, shes screwed regardless of the reason for why people are mad, simply because she is the messenger.

Welcome to customer service.

I notice that people who have waiter'd give better tips than those who have not.

But those who have waiter'd also more plainly recognize bad/slow service and can separate it from bad cooking. Caveat emptor.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Hikan Trilear · Jun 15, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

To the OP: I believe you are wrong about the community being divided into PvE and PvP. There is in fact a much greater divide: A-net lovers, and A-net haters. It's clearly evidenced in this thread, the A-net lovers will disagree with you no matter what you say if it's bashing A-net. While the A-net Haters will agree with you as long as it's bashing A-net. The fact of the matter is you can't really have a discussion because people will not agree with the people on the other side of the "divide".

As for me I think they're getting some things right with this update (recall mostly) and some things wrong. The problem most people have is that they're not doing enough "Right" things (fixes).

Quote:

Paragons. No idea what to do. But they are too weak alone but overpowered in groups. They are also being nerfed in a way that is killing them in PvE. Tough spot on these guys.

People have suggested not making their shouts affect other paragons, that would destroy them in groups but open the way for some major buffs if there was only one in the team. (makes sense anyway being "leaders" after all)

Inde · Jun 15, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

This is a difficult topic. I'm not really sure whether to allow this to continue, I don't want to be seen as endorsing such a view. I do think it's important for a community to be frank, to point out flaws, to point out grievances and air their concerns and problems. This extends to game bugs, updates, developers, or community relations. The problem is where the line is drawn.

To get into a "quote" war by simply taking out snipets of conversation that can be taken out of context is not the way to express concerns. There's some conjecture and speculation filtered in with opinion and some agressive facts.

The question is, does this deserve a space to be debated and discussed? The problem with these types of threads, where people believe they are being honest, is that they deteriorate rapidly into flaming, name-calling, bashing and insults. The fact that this was posted on another fansite and it turned out this way with an eventual close more then supports this fact. I'm not sure what to recommend or advise. If you have serious concerns do you send them to NCSoft support? Do you try to email someone? Do you post them on a fansite forum? And how do you seperate opinion and heresay from legitimate concerns?

I know that I receive complaints in my PM box and email both about myself and our moderators. I address those concerns, I speak with people and try to clarify/explain/answer them. I know Gaile Gray's passion for this community is the same. That yes, she does see the concerns but can't possibly see every suggestion, every complaint, every comment. When I go through an extensive thread with essay-like posts (soul reaping comes to mind) no I do not read every line of the post. I skim, see key points, because hey... there are thousands of posts every day on this forum. There are thousands of posts every day across the forums. Even when an idea is suggested multiple times you can miss it. You can't pin someone down because their filter has to be broader then yours. I see the main concerns of the community, they can be extensive and with the knowledge that any change you make there will be unhappy customers.

I can change the color of this site and see threats from people that they "will never visit again" over something so arbitrary. Filtering out the noise to get to the root of complaints has been a struggle for all MMOG's. It's a struggle for forum owners who have to balance and weigh each thread and post trying to decide if it's contributing, if it has weight against possible lashback from the developers or another angle of the community.

So I sit here wondering what I should do. It will take a lot of convincing, a lot of maturity on this communities part to make sure that this thread does not turn into a back-and-forth IRC conversation, flaming, or outright attack that will force me to DELETE this thread. There will be no closing here. If I feel you step over the line your post will be deleted. And please save the anti-anet arguements or the fan boy arguement for your friends. One-liners that I feel do not contribute will be deleted. Any personal insult to anyone will be deleted.

We'll see what happens.

Coridan · Jun 15, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

I feel this post was made with the wrong intentions..however it is worded in the OP. If you take the time to read thru the post on GWO that this is referring to you will see that The OP was banned for good reason and with ample warnings to stop. All he/she is trying to do here is start the same kind of war that they have going on over there. The OP has gone out of the way to cast ANET and Gaile in a negative manner but fails to quote his/her malicious posts in reguards to them.

I am not saying that the OP is wrong on everything but i do believe he/she is going about this the wrong way. Obviously the OP has a problem with Gaile Grey.. I suggest the mods have them take it to PM like they would with any other disagreement between forum users.

Nurse With Wound · Jun 15, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xycury

Seriously, just close this thread and find the number Anet and call her boss. That would be the most constructive of your time and benefit more to Anet than this stupid thread.

I don't see the reason why do you want to suppress and censor polite on-topic discussion. This is wrong approach and fan sites shouldn't do things like that, or they can , and will loose their credibility.

There is certainly problem with community - Anet relations. PVP state of the game, mass exodus of players to other games, and general feeling of being ignored are everywhere.

From shrinking number of guilds participating in GVG, to small number of districts in Heroes Ascent and Team Arenas - the signs are obvious, the game is dying and declining fast. The main cause of this are failed development ideas, lack of proper skill balance and ignoring the voice of community. There are dozens of great threads in Gladiator's Arena part of Guru, which address those issues in mature, polite manner, offering good solutions for existing problems ( I will just point Ensign's stellar skill update wishlist ). I do believe that Anet developers want their game to be perfect on all fronts, be it PVP or PVE wise. Sadly, I feel that they aren't getting any PVP player feedback, our suggestions, petitions, proposals are all being ignored .

I blame lack of proper information trading between the real force that shapes the game ( developers ), and good source of feedback, and paying customers ( experienced PVP players ).

If the situation won't change, I'm giving Guild Wars PVP 6 months tops, before total decline. We won't get back to the awesome times of past championships, but at least we can keep some of those who still are playing.

So please, listen to us. Listen to your own community, listen to your loyal, paying customers.

Another Felldspar · Jun 15, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

As far as A-Net Customer service goes my own personal experience has been:

Support is responsive, answers questions quickly, and does an excellent job of taking care of the customer.
The Dev Team and Community Relations have been good about passing information to the customers.
The Dev Team and Community Relations have listened to suggestions and responded to ideas from the community, even when that response has been, "No" or, "Not at this time."

It seems that your main complaint is not that Gaile is doing a poor job in giving information to the community, but that information given by the community onto the formus is not being passed into the proper hands. It may be that you have a valid complaint, but then again, maybe not. From statements that I've seen Gaile has said that she and other members of the dev team read the forums on a daily basis. If Izzy is not aware of what is being said on the forums it may well be that Izzy is shirking the responsibility of reading them for himself. Or not. I don't know how tasks are divided at A-Net. Neither do you. This is definitely a "Gaile is not doing her job." type post and the truth of the matter is that none of us know if that is true or not true. It could very easily be that Izzy is not doing his job.

Or it could be that both Izzy and Gaile (and the rest of the company as well) are very hard at work at their jobs and you are simply wrong about anyone shirking. The Meta is constantly evolving and that is a good thing. But people who build and use gimmicky (or creative, depending on the personal perspective of the user) builds will always find something to base a gimmick on, and evolution will occur, and that's a good thing. No, it's no fun to be against a team of Paragons who chuck spears forever and simply don't die, but that doesn't translate to Gaile sucks -- at least not in my mind.

Aye

Gawa · Jun 15, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

Then you will just take anything that's giving to you, regardless of whether or not you agree with it? That's essentially what you are saying.

*sigh* Yes, you know me so well dont you... *shakes head* Ill do your trick and change the quote to relfect what you should have said..

Quote:

Then you will just take everything that's giving to you, regardless of whether or not you agree with it? That's essentially what you are saying.

Yep.
If i then think it could be done better, i discuss it here constructively with all you other GW fans, see what the informed public opinion is and then either post a suggestion here or send a PM to Gail. That is effective.
Inciting this sort of personal attack is not effective, in fact it is detrimental to the relationship between players and staff. How can some of you not see this...?

(and no need to 'criticise' my spelling on this side of the pond either ;P)

Sli Ander · Jun 15, 2007, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Taking this to the extreme suggesting we're claiming she should listen to the demands of the individual is not really constructive.

This is not one person wanting a pony, this is the general consensus of the PVP community, these are things countless people want to see implemented, things completely breaking the game right now.

I'm tired, so perhaps my sense of humor threw things off. The point was that they have listened to people, and do it on a regular basis;hence the reference to the official suggestions thread. An amazing amount of stuff has been added to the game at our behest.
And the other point was that you are still focusing on one aspect of the game. If you are indeed speaking for the entire PvP community, then what about Pve? I understand the reasons for most skill changes stemming from PvP, but that doesn't mean it's voice should be ignored.
I cannot say I'm in the loop as much as I used to be in the game, as my life has changed course in the past few months, but others in this thread have noted certain things. Not the least of which being that right now Anet is busy getting ready to provide 2 new services to its customers: GW:EN and GW2. They're attention is divided, and something you see as direly important with the need for an immediate fix may only seem to ANet as something they can take care of with a more careful deliberate fix.
I wouldn't know. Neither can you. We can simply sit here and guess.

But that's just my two cents

BDZeres · Jun 15, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00

I think Gaile's done a good job as a CR rep for PvE. Unfortunately for us PvP'ers our concerns do not seem to be making it through to the devs. IMO this game has been broken and dead for a long time now and Anet simply does not have the resources or willpower to fix it. It just so happens to be one of the best games in the market right now which will actually run on my PC, which is why I still keep playing (that and a sense of nostalgia I suppose). I would agree that better representation is needed for the PvP community if things are going to change for the better.

However, seeing that the focus for the devs is GWEN and GW2 I won't be holding my breath.

Darksun · Jun 15, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Lets not get caught up in the semantics of customer/community relations, we all know what she does, is she doing it well.

All quotes are from gwonline, various threads, I'm banned right now so I can't link you to individual posts.

I don't think it's a semantics issue. Lyra brought up a good point. Gaile said there are several people reading the forums so trying to peg her as the sole communicator of community opinion is, well, inaccurate.

While the idea that the ANET team may not be getting the correct community information is disturbing, there are problems with several things you've said here.

If Gaile has only PvE knowledge, why are most of the changes relative to PvP? Their PvE effect is usually to make the game harder. Max +25 stacking armor? please tell me how the PvE portion of the game warranted this.

Your post sounds all "epic" and all, but it ignores the basic tenant that what the community proposes doesn't necessarily make a balanced game.
Maybe it's just a difference in philosophy, but I don't see why ANET should just do what we want. (please don't give me the "that's how they make money" crap. It's obvious that the people ranting could care less if ANET makes money. If that's all they wanted we'd all have every piece of armor, 20 skills at a time, be level 40, flying on mounts, jumping, have +12 Mana regen & be rich ) That's how crappy musicians like Brittaney came about. They walk a line between, what we like, what they like & the best understanding of what balance is based on their data & research (Which, btw, is much more extensive than ours)

All that being said, if the conversation you posted is true, there does need to be much better communication to people like Izzy about what's going on.

I would like to hear more reasons as to why they make the changes, but I honestly think people will ever accept anything but what they want, weather it makes sense or even applies to a majority of players. The people on the forum do not represent everyone, and regardless of how much we hate or love a specific thing in the game, ANET's data on how ALL the players play may show the opposite of what we say here.

icymanipulator · Jun 15, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Easy fix for their divided attention. Lock down Guildwars. Find a tipping point where balance is reasonably hit and just lock the game. I'd rather have a static environment than one constantly in flux tipping wildly in both directions.

LiQiuD · Jun 15, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

I have to tell you Tiyuri, I agree with almost everything you said.

Coming from CoH/CoV, another NCSoft title, they handled Community Relations much better for a couple of reasons:

1. They had their own set of Forums, that they maintained...so there was really only one place to go, and one place the Devs Answered.

2. They had 1-3 dedicated CR people. I think they settled on two, but there was always at least one person that trolled their forums, answered questions and relayed information.

3. The Devs trolled the forums, posted, and actually participated in discussions.

Now most of those things worked so well, because they only had one place to go...Fan sites still existed, but for the most part, all Dev Communication happened at the official forum site.

You could also tell when things were being communicated because the CR would say I'll bring that to a dev, and then either a Dev or the CR would respond with an answer.

Was their system 100%? No. Was it better than what GW has? Absolutely.

Overall I think Gaile try's, and in all fairness she does more than some other MMOs do, but the PvP arena is truly lacking...

I know someone said that with the launch of GW:EN and GW2 they don't have time to add another person for PvP...my answer...Yes they do...add someone from the community that already has the knowledge...how many people already writing articles would love to step up into that job. My guess, most of them.

Anyway...just my thoughts...feel free to doubt me or flame me.

sindex · Jun 15, 2007, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Let me put it this way. A-net is a very different brand of a game developer. So far of recent years, every developer has become more and more arrogant to their player base. I could start listing them all, and Blizzard would be at the top of the list. However in A-nets case it’s always been a lack of communication that has set up these bad updates/ good updates. It is not the communities responsibility to constantly yell out that “GW is broken” or there of.

I have said it once and I will say it again, the community does of a somewhat moderate control over GW. I think if we did gave the whole idea; of fixing GW to the community there would be utter chaos. Many different aspects that go into these updates have been that of, “the community whining and crying for a change(s).” Soul Reaping is a perfect example of this, and how many people whined about it. There were so many threads that came before the so called “SR nerf,” that said it was "way too powerful." I am sorry, but it’s both the PvP and the PvE parts of the community that controls the state of the game (it is not one sided). All of you PvP’ers who complained that PvP was not being represented enough in Prophecies, that was the reason we got Factions. Then it was the PvE’ers that complained about the PvE in Factions, and so we got Nightfall.

Falling on the PR relation (that’s exactly what they are), it is absolutely lackluster. Here is the problem: we know about what will go in an update, but we only know half of the story. Yes A-net provides us with commentary every now and again, about why they “fix” something. However it only goes so far; not many people have great insight into what A-net is doing, but the PR people have to act “coy with the community.” For instance the Inquirer leak of GW 2 and EotN, most (if not all) was true in summarized of what was going to happen to GW. However we were led to believe that it was a small portion if it being right (most of it was wrong), so we must buy PC Gamer magazine to get the full story. Only to find out the leak was about 90% right about GW 2 and EotN.

I have to ask why it is only a few people from A-net that actually takes their time to talk to the community. As bad as Lionhead Studios can be, it’s the usually the whole development team pitching in. I would love too see Jeff Strain post something on the community boards. At times I think he is only getting half of the information from his PR people; so he quotes something that is half right and half wrong. So if Peter Molyneux from Lionhead Studios and Sid Meier from Firaxis Games can talk to their community why can’t Jeff Strain.

Once the communication factor is fixed this whole thread would be irrelevant.

BTW this thread will not end well.

Gawa · Jun 15, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiQiuD

1. They had their own set of Forums, that they maintained...so there was really only one place to go, and one place the Devs Answered.

Now most of those things worked so well, because they only had one place to go...Fan sites still existed, but for the most part, all Dev Communication happened at the official forum site.

That is the one thing that i wondered... when i bought GW i straight away looked for their forum...but there isnt one :s (so i found guru heh) I agree that 1 offical forum would be good. However, given how some people post here, i can imagine many forum bans taking place, which would then leave people annoyed even if they deserved the forum ban :P
I dont know the official reason why they dont have one..does anyone? I guess it would be a lot of potential hassell, when they can rego at fan sites without having to actually manage them.

Darksun · Jun 15, 2007, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiQiuD

I have to tell you Tiyuri, I agree with almost everything you said.

Coming from CoH/CoV, another NCSoft title, they handled Community Relations much better for a couple of reasons:

1. They had their own set of Forums, that they maintained...so there was really only one place to go, and one place the Devs Answered.

2. They had 1-3 dedicated CR people. I think they settled on two, but there was always at least one person that trolled their forums, answered questions and relayed information.

3. The Devs trolled the forums, posted, and actually participated in discussions.

Now most of those things worked so well, because they only had one place to go...Fan sites still existed, but for the most part, all Dev Communication happened at the official forum site.

You could also tell when things were being communicated because the CR would say I'll bring that to a dev, and then either a Dev or the CR would respond with an answer.

Was their system 100%? No. Was it better than what GW has? Absolutely.

Overall I think Gaile try's, and in all fairness she does more than some other MMOs do, but the PvP arena is truly lacking...

I know someone said that with the launch of GW:EN and GW2 they don't have time to add another person for PvP...my answer...Yes they do...add someone from the community that already has the knowledge...how many people already writing articles would love to step up into that job. My guess, most of them.

Anyway...just my thoughts...feel free to doubt me or flame me.

Sounds pretty good. I only have knowledge about my friend's experience with WoW & AO. WoW seemed as bad or worse than GW(and they have thier own forums), and AO sounded much worse. Compared to WoW, the GW nerfs sounded tame. AO, just sounded like they didn't care and said so.

Coridan · Jun 15, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiQiuD

1. They had their own set of Forums, that they maintained...so there was really only one place to go, and one place the Devs Answered.

2. They had 1-3 dedicated CR people. I think they settled on two, but there was always at least one person that trolled their forums, answered questions and relayed information.

3. The Devs trolled the forums, posted, and actually participated in discussions.

I have to agree with this. I don't know if i have EVER seen an actual Dev post. I know we get alot of quotes etc from Devs but i think that comes paraphrased thru the CR team. I also think that ANET should run an Official Forums as that would elimate alot of the double posting on many of the Fan sites. You can go to this site and then jump to GWO and see pretty much the same posts and same replies to those same posts.

Big_Iron · Jun 15, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

I think unloading all this on Gaile is unfair. She’s the face we see everyday that represents Anet. That’s what makes her a target. She’s not a developer and she’s not the one who decides what gets nerfed, buffed and so on. The developers are the ones who decide what needs to be tweaked. It’s Gaile’s unfortunate position to try to put a positive spin on it so she gets attacked for it. Frankly, you couldn’t pay me enough to do her job. It sucks. Blaming one person for all of GW’s woes isn’t going to solve anything.

w00t! · Jun 15, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

This is a difficult topic. I'm not really sure whether to allow this to continue, I don't want to be seen as endorsing such a view. I do think it's important for a community to be frank, to point out flaws, to point out grievances and air their concerns and problems. This extends to game bugs, updates, developers, or community relations. The problem is where the line is drawn.
(snip)

First, good post, and quite a conundrum.

For your answer, look no further than the link below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_criticism

I'd go one step further; posts like this should not only be constructive, but they should also be informed.

Cacheelma · Jun 15, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

Epic post count +1.

Actually, it's not so much Gaile I have a problem with (although she is, well, 'uninformed' about the part of the playerbase which differentiates GW from your generic MMORPG) but her rabid fanclub who think that she is always right.

I still want to hear these rabid Gaile's fanclub members comment on this:

(Regarding the Inquirer's spill of PCGamer's Exclusive Information on GWEN and GW2)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile

Just a quick word to let you know that we haven't made any official announcements about Guild Wars in, oh, a couple of months. Sure, there's a little *ahem* info circulating this week. :wink: But you guys know the drill: Until we say it, it's not official. I can tell you that some of what you've read is right, some of it is wrong, and quite a bit of it is misleading. Unfortunately, we can't offer a fact check quite yet.

Didn't she basically LIE? Everything on the Inquirer is totally CORRECT, words by words, when compared with PCGamer's info. What's the deal here?

And just so you know, that was the time when I lost my faith in Anet, and Gaile in particular.

LiQiuD · Jun 15, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by WoodyDotNet

I think unloading all this on Gaile is unfair. She’s the face we see everyday that represents Anet. That’s what makes her a target. She’s not a developer and she’s not the one who decides what gets nerfed, buffed and so on. The developers are the ones who decide what needs to be tweaked. It’s Gaile’s unfortunate position to try to put a positive spin on it so she gets attacked for it. Frankly, you couldn’t pay me enough to do her job. It sucks. Blaming one person for all of GW’s woes isn’t going to solve anything.

If she didn't realize that she was going to bare the brunt of the attacks from a rabid fan base...she probably shouldn't have taken the job. The Original CR from CoH (CuppaJo FTW) knew it would be part of the job, took the job, and because she was honest, and didn't lose her cool in public turned into probably one of the greatest CRs I have ever seen. It's part of the job...learn to deal, or put in for a transfer.

I worked as a CR, hated it, and I'll never go back.